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Which design for oil sump Options · View
vanair
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:09:28 AM

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Hi

Well we are doing our best to get the 7 finished and are at the point of modifying the sumpd'oh!

I have searched the 7 sites and googled around but to no avail.

There seems to be some controversy about cutting the bottom part off and adding side tanks with flaps inside and just plainly cutting of the bottom part and maybe adding baffles.

There must be tried and tested designs around.
It will be great if it could be shared with me! Drool

What are the different pros and cons of the two design above and are there any other ideas?

Thanks

Regards

Pieter

Haynes Roadster 20V Silvertop T50 gearbox (Being born..)
Paul#25
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:32:47 PM

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Hi Pieter
I have run the "Hammer Head" sump on both 16V & 20V 4AGE motors since 2001 and never had problems with oil surge or oil starvation.
The trick is to not only shorten the sump for ground clearence but to get slightly more oil capacity. You must have hinged doors inside the tank, and then shorten the oil pick-up.
Ken Cloud has kits made up with all the correct plates cut and bent to size. You can get the plates from him and weld it all together, or give him your sump to do the mods. It is best to do all the welding on the sump with it bolted to an old block to stop it worping out of true, as it won't seal correctly.
DON'T TAKE SHORTCUTS, it WILL cost you an engine!!!
Ken can be contacted on 0827454320.
Run your motor in with a good quality mineral oil, but change to a fully synthetic oil for racing. The mineral oils cannot handle the very high pressures on the bearings at high revs and oil temps. The full synthetic oils are more expensive, but then again are cheaper than a blown motor.

All the best with the build.
Paul #25

If everything is going well and seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
vanair
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:26:08 PM

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Thanks Paul

We are surely looking forward to take The Beast for her maiden run :d/

The hammerhead design incorporates mechanical parts which increases the risk of something more that can fail (although I suppose this is well tested and proven).

Is this (mechanical) the only solution?

Regards

Pieter

Haynes Roadster 20V Silvertop T50 gearbox (Being born..)
muller
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:03:30 PM

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I run a different design without mechanical flaps etc.

I cut the sump and and extend it backward to recover the lost oil capacity, basically making the sump square. The extended bit does have a baffle to stop oil surge. The second important mod is to weld the stock baffle plate in the sump up along the edges - that then becomes your second baffle plate.

Hope it makes sense, I'll try and dig out a few photo's.

PS Ken's sumps are brilliant, but there is more than one solution to the problem

Anton
Birkin IRS SR20VE A10 (all mine)
Birkin IRS 4age 20v B20 (Lauren)
Quatro
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:15:30 PM

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Why do you put mineral oil in first and then synthetic oil?
Cloud 7
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:56:34 PM

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Hi Pieter,

The secret to a good sump is to keep the oil around the pick-up, thus preventing the pump from sucking air, and thereby destroying bearings. (just ½ a second of no oil ---BOOM).
Anton's design is another way of recovering quantity lost by shortening the sump. By welding the top baffle you are preventing oil flowing up the side of the block during cornering and braking, Remember you can pull as much as 1.5 g's in these manoeuvres.
The only mechanical part of the hammerhead sump is a hinge for the baffle door, which is not a highly stressed part and copes quite well.
The reason for using mineral oil during run-in is to help with the bedding in of the rings.

Hope this helps.
regards
K(elev)en

K(elev)en
Don't get into an argument with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!

SMILE.....It will either warm their heart or p--s them off...Either way you WIN!!!!
Quatro
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:53:51 AM

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"Bedding in of rings"? Please can you explain further. Maybe I am doing something wrong.
vanair
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:22:50 AM

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Ok that gives me something to work with.

Ken I will contact you during this evening and have a chat.

Muller if you could search for those pics I will appreciate it.

Thanks guys.

Pieter

Haynes Roadster 20V Silvertop T50 gearbox (Being born..)
Gabe
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:19:39 AM

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I have been following this debate with great interest, why not running a dry sump configuration? pardon my ignorance.
Paul#25
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:36:49 AM

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Hi Quatro
With a new engine, the bore surface will have been honed to a rough finish. The honeing pattern and roughness will look like circular "sanding" up and down the bore. The rings and bore surface need to wear in together to form seal. The running in of a motor has very little to do with the bearings and lots to do with the seating of the rings. The fully synthetic oils work to well in lubricating the bore and you don't get the rings to seat or bed in correctly. This does not happen with a mineral oil.

The run-in procedure I use is adapted from the procedure used by Cosworth where they use an engine dyno.
Once the engine is fitted and connected up, I spin the motor over with the spark plugs removed till I get positive oil pressure.
The plugs are the refitted and the motor started. I then run the motor for about 10 minutes keeping the revs between 2000 & 2500 RPM. I run two fans on the radiator and exhaust to keep it cool. (If the temp goes above 100 deg C, shut it down.)
After the first run you can do all the checks for leaks and fluid levels. Leave the motor to cool back to ambient temp.
I then do three runs on the road, normally at night so there is non traffic, of about 30 to 40 min each. On the first run I limit the revs to 3500 RPM max, the second to 4500 RPM and the third 5500 RPM. The trick with these runs is NOT to keep the rpm constant, but to load the motor by accelerating in a high gear an then taking your foot off the gas and running against compression. What this does is force the rings out ou the grooves in the pistons and hard against the bore during acceleration and let them seat less firmly against the bore during decelleration, giving the iol time to remove the metal particles that have been worn off the bore.
Once this procedure is complete, I drain the oil and change the fliter and refill with mineral oil. I then drive the car fo about 300Km, keeping the revs below 5500Rpm. The oil and and filter and are then changed again and I fill up with the synthetic oil and go and have fun.
Hope this helps.

Paul #25

If everything is going well and seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
muller
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:49:53 PM

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Every race engine I've built have been cranked for oil pressure, started and run up to temp to make sure there are no leaks and then stuck on the dyno for mapping with strict instructions to have no mercy! I'm not planning on getting 100 000km out of the engine, heck I'll probably do 5000km before the next rebuild.

Anton
Birkin IRS SR20VE A10 (all mine)
Birkin IRS 4age 20v B20 (Lauren)
muller
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:51:40 PM

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Gabe wrote:
I have been following this debate with great interest, why not running a dry sump configuration? pardon my ignorance.


Dry sumping is not allowed in class B regs. The other limiting factor is cost.

Anton
Birkin IRS SR20VE A10 (all mine)
Birkin IRS 4age 20v B20 (Lauren)
muller
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:55:52 PM

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vanair wrote:

Muller if you could search for those pics I will appreciate it.


Had a quick look and can't find any sorry. Will keep on hunting

Anton
Birkin IRS SR20VE A10 (all mine)
Birkin IRS 4age 20v B20 (Lauren)
Bryn
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:10:45 PM
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At the risk of starting a very long thread I'll refer you lot to this article. Decide for yourselves what you like.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I can vouch for the merit of making the rings work "hard" early though: Since rebuilding the 16V Toymota, and having thought I ran it in "fairly" aggressively, I monitored the ring seal start quite low and then improve steadily over the 1st 3000km. It then kinda hung around until I hit the track and even then, only since the last Zkops meeting in 08 did all 4 pots finally exceed 90%. (NB this was using a proper leakdown tester connected to a compressor, not an ordinary "compression" pressure gauge)

The in between tests where things were depressingly low (it ranged from high 70%'s to mid 80%'s) elicited panic thoughts like "did I break ring on assembly" or "has the thing detonated a ring land?". If rings need to last a long time (in road use or in a nice mild engine like mine ;-) (dig) then it stands to reason that they are pretty tough to start with and by treating them too kindly at first you lose the opportunity for things to get friendly quickly in there. Miss that opportunity and you are pretty stuffed. Run with too good an oil and the general consensus seems to be that you will never even see that opportunity. It's a bit expensive to test this theory / consensus oneself so why argue?

I've heard of motors fitted with Total Seal gapless rings that never bedded in, ever. Seems those things must be assembled bone dry and given blood immediately or you'll just get glazed bores and mega blow by.

vanair
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:46:02 PM

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muller wrote:
vanair wrote:

Muller if you could search for those pics I will appreciate it.


Had a quick look and can't find any sorry. Will keep on hunting


Thanks Anton

Haynes Roadster 20V Silvertop T50 gearbox (Being born..)
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